Shamanism, etc.

[Grace02]

Hi Girls, I was thinking recently about the position of transgender people within various religions. We all know about the eunuchs in India and I know that crossdressing has always had a place in Shamanism but does anyone know of its position in other philosophies?

I think this could possibly be an interesting and enlightening thread. The more we know of this sort of thing, the more we may feel that we can gain acceptance.

I think that if we look into it then we may be urprised by what we find...:o

[Kate]

Hi Grace I'm sure this will be a very interesting thread, I don't believe in any form of religion myself. But from what I have read I think most if not all of the main church groups, think that being TS is a sin and was not "gods" wish and is so very wrong. That they will do their best to try and stop us from being who we really are, it will be intersting to see where this thread takes us.

[jackiejones]

Islam its a Big NO,you wont get killed for it in some other religions but most frown upon it! im pleased to say im an Athest.

[Ellena]

All religions are hypocritical, as soon as they become the state religion - as then it is about control not enlightenment. After all can control the population if they keep changing their appearance or gender. Also Islam and Christianity suffer from Old Testament as common book - and not nice book really. Intolerant. I have noticed if they want to put people down they quote not the new testament only the old. Also western society for long time (starting with Romans), is about breeding cannon fodder or future breeders of cannon fodder. Our history of the past centuries shows it easier to be trans gender if you are of ruling classes, but NOT if you are of working classes. Also in our society (thanks again to Romans) women were meant to be inferior and men superior. So yes woman may want to be man, but man to be a woman! - "that is shameful step down" When Boudicca beat Romans, the Romans horror was not massacres, or defeats but shame that it was by a woman! Even today it is insult to a man to be called say 'a big woman's blouse" or similar female allusions. But I am going off the track - Look not to State religions or state controlled religions and look to those who seek enlightenment - in becoming. And to understand oneself truly, who you really are, is enlightening. Mind you for me enlightenment :)is also a glass of Nirvana:) - my religion.

Ellena

[Christina Johnson]

Islam its a Big NO,you wont get killed for it in some other religions but most frown upon it! im pleased to say im an Athest.


on a quirky side note, a friend of mine (yes he is iranian)- said Iran decreed a few years ago that it was not unlawful and there are the beginnings of governmental support.

But, best not all rush out to get flight tickets for a shopping jaunt - as their wardrobe may be limited.

[julieblack]

the native americans called such people two spirits or berdache, these were respected in the tribes as they were considered to be complete, more balanced than simply a man or woman, they were also held in great esteem as the two spirits were often used as healers and in some case a shaman for the tribes


julie black

[Linzi]

.......... And to understand oneself truly, who you really are, is enlightening. Mind you for me enlightenment :)is also a glass of Nirvana:) - my religion........

And a glass of "Tropical" as well!................................ Hic!............

Religion!.... as somebody on 'Roses' said..... "....Is a boil on the arse of Humanity!"

I couldn't agree more!

[Grace02]

the native americans called such people two spirits or berdache, these were respected in the tribes as they were considered to be complete, more balanced than simply a man or woman, they were also held in great esteem as the two spirits were often used as healers and in some case a shaman for the tribes

Like the character in 'Little Big Man' as I recall.

I'm interested in the relation of transvestism to otherworldliness, as a transitional, in-between gender identity does it represent a portal to 'the other side'? I certainly find it uplifting but does that mean it takes me to another place or makes me more complete or in touch with the infinite?

I'm interested in non-conventional spirituality and I've looked into other alternative religions including the likes of wicca and even satanism and found them all to be lacking in terms of pesonnel or philosophy and as a consequence I am trying to work it all out for myself. However, all advice and information is welcome. basically my main conclusion so far is that Seeing is Believing and trappings such as gods, icons temples of any description are at best obsolete and at worst a distraction to the plainly observable natural phenomenon which surrounds us. Don't get me wrong, I'm no follower of the dawkins but I think a balance of the physical and spiritual is what's called for. Why cut yourself off from what is actually beautiful, uplifting and physically present just to appease a concept?

[Christina Johnson]

like the character in 'little big man' as i recall.





fantastic film - bit long but.......

[kim swanheart]

Interesting stuff, I never had any problems attending the Methodist Church.People were judged on their behaviour rather than lifestyle,appearance etc.Jesus was very outspoken about things He considered wrong,He never condemmned LGBT people.(I didn't make that up the former Minister said so and knows a bit more about religion than I do!)

[debs_n_soots]

To defend religion, briefly, I'd say it's not so much religion that is hypocrtical as SOME of the adherents. I'm an atheist but I do believe in the basic teachings of Christ for example - and I do believe that he'd be horrified if he knew about lots of the things that are/have been done in his name (and if he's right about ressurection then presumably he does know of course). I think Mohammed would probably be shocked as well.....

Re Iran, we talked about this a while back - there was a program about it - apparently it is legal to transition and there are an increasing number of Iranian SRS surgeons. The downside is that lots of gay men use surgery to make it legal to live with / have sex with their boyfriends. Homosexuality is illegal in Iran - and punishable by death...

To get back to the point of the thread....

Regards the Berdache etc - it seems to me that many cultures have found a place for transsexual people and been a hell of a lot more accepting than Christian/Islamic culture (until recently at least). However - they all seem to put their own slant on things which doesn't neccessarily tie in with that of the individual. Being seen as 'between genders' certainly doesn't suit everyone - yet even enlightened cultures seek to explain the phenomenon in their own terms rather than allow the individual to assert their own identity....

Still, at least they tried :)

[rachelb]

Re Iran, we talked about this a while back - there was a program about it - apparently it is legal to transition and there are an increasing number of Iranian SRS surgeons. The downside is that lots of gay men use surgery to make it legal to live with / have sex with their boyfriends. Homosexuality is illegal in Iran - and punishable by death...

I remember two items on television a while back. There was a report showing a 'trial' of a young teenager from the country who had reported his 'master' to the authorities for forcing him to have oral sex with him. They were both taken outside and shot there and then :( The other more recent program was about the transexuals and how the government made it easy to have sex change ops. Unfortunatly most of the 'girls' were against it as a lot of them that had to have the change wanted to practise as male sex workers. That was a definate 'No No', have the change, and as Debs says above or be shot, or if 'lucky' be sent to prison, and everyone knew what would happen to you once in there:( even if it was a Muslim prison.

As for my 'religion', not very strong i am afraid being a Methodist/Salvation Army/Baptist Sunday school member, but I do get group support from fellow'es's' at Ren. It is a bit like going to a 'church' or 'chapel', you meet such nice people who can help you with all your problems and you are allowed to drink alcohol!!

My mother-in-law is involved with the Unitarians and she always claims that they are far more open minded than most other churches. Quite how she would react if her son-in-law wandered into one of their meetings wearing his 'Sunday best' dress, I shudder to think!