Should The T Be In LGBT ?

[Nicola D]

I have heard a few girls discuss this at the last meeting (27th May 2008).
Yet there is no discussion about this on the forum.
As this is a controversial topic I thought I'd start a debate about it.

For the record I see no problems with there being a T with LGB as TG'd are a similar subject from a medical profession point of view.

I also feel that if Gays, Lesbians, Bisexuals and Transgendered stick together we will have safety and protection and influence in numbers.

To split the T from LGBT would only make us more vunerable and make it harder for us to fight for our rights.

Well there's my opinion, lets hear what some of you think on this subject.

[debs_n_soots]

Hi Nicola,

I'm in two minds on this one.

My Trade Union has an LGBT dept - and I guess it's a convenient 'lumping together' because from an employemnt point of view we all suffer similar issues - that is discrimination based on an aspect of ourselves over which we have no control. From that point of view I can see the sense in it.

On the other hand our issues are different in nature. LGB people are dealing with their sexuality, whilst T people are dealing with gender issues. A number of people are no doubt dealing with both, having said that - but then in that respect they are LGB AND T.

I know there are some gay people who feel no affinity with us and would like to see us excluded. I can't say I feel any affinity with gay people for that matter - but on the other hand I'm not worried about being associated with LGBT.

On balance I'd say that LGBT is a slightly shaky association - but a useful one nevertheless.

[Lynda Collins]

I feel the trouble is that everyone seems to link the words Gay,Lesbian and bi-sexual as a sexual act whereas in fact they are all lifestyles as is trans [you do not hear people say "oh look they are havin gay over there" similary "look at them havin Lesbian"
It does give the girls going out a cover of protection under ther law and does sometimes help in the workplace ...although those transitioning at work can still be forced out, "there are always ways to make it impossible for you to carry on"
I don't see being linked to LBG really has any negative effect at all... and as far as the police is cocerned it has built up a really close bond between them and the T population here in the north west UK

Another last thought... Is not the T population made up of all the different elements LBG and Hetro

[reggie]

I was discussing this with Lynda on tuesday, my point being that LGB was a sexuality issue not gender, until Lynda pointed out as she has done here that it is a lifestyle as well as sexuality.

To go to the T point when I came out to one of my brothers I spent an hour trying to explain that being Trans was not a sexual thing, but a gender issue as he believed it was the same as being gay.

Yes there is a difference here, but I now see the point that they are all Lifestyle matters not just sexuality, so we should stay together for the benefit of all concerned

[debs_n_soots]

I'd agree that LGB & T can all be 'lifestyle' choices - but that they aren't necessarily. Fundamentally I'd still say that LGB are about sexuality - whether or not you're on the gay scene is another matter. Similarly T with gender. I'm trans - due (I believe) to a set of circumstances that occured during my development in the womb. I very rarely frequent the 'T' scene (these days) however - on the whole my life is 'ordinary' - so I'm not sure I've made a lifestyle choice as such.

That said I've no objection to LGBT - and think it is a good thing really.

I hope I don't come across as obtuse - that's not my intention, it's just the way I see things :)

Debbie x

[reggie]

I think that we tend to use words in the given definition a lot of the time, without analysing whether we feel that they are really what we think ourselves.

We are in a world that these days wants, and also tends to analyse everyone and everything and pigeon hole them into definite groups.

Unfortunately this doesn't work as there are so many variables and different peoples interpretations of words and classsifications.

I have seen since I entered the T community that, there are so many differences amongst us as to sexuality and lifestyles.

As you say Debs you now lead an Ordinary life and I find myself tending to follow that also, altho' I have a long way to go yet.

As far as this discussion goes (or any other for that matter) we will always have our own opinions, and that is what makes the Human race, being able to air them with others, in an attempt to find answers. :)

[michaela]

This is just my personal opinion,but i feel yes the T should stay,i have a few lesbian friends,a lot of gay friends They have no problem with me in fact i always feel safer with them.To detract slightly from what Lynda said how many of us come under or have done,been either L,G or B,probably a minority but none the less a fact.
Michaela x

[Lynsey]

Well as my very first contribution on the website Ill put my two pennorth in on this discussion.

A pedant maybe accurate in saying that T isn't a logical co-grouping with LGB because all the others are indicators of preference of sexual partner, whereas T is an indication of gender identity, the greatly missed Carol put me right on this a couple of years ago in a fascinating discussion we had one night at Ren.

However I would say that the trans community has been something of a poor relation in terms of the kind of acceptance which the other groups have begun to benefit from. I think its a reasonable bet that changes in legislation and hopefully attitudes in the general public may be quicker to arrive if we continue to grouped together the the LGB community, as those groups would otherwise probably be 20 years ahead of us in terms of acceptance by the public and the politicians.

PS LGBT is no where near enough categories to describe me:) only joking honestly !

[Lynda Collins]

But Lynsey you forgot hetrosexual [ this an indication of preference of sexual partner]

My point earlier was they are all indications of the partners they would prefer but the words are not in themselves a sexual act.

They are also a lifestyle as well...... would you say "look over there they are having hetrosexual" I don't think so

The "Tg" population covers all of these ...BG and H
The transsexual population f-m/m-f can cover them also plus L

[Linzi]

My view!... I agree that L G and B are labels of sexual preference and in that context the T part should be removed........ Lynda is also correct that being H is a label as well!........

I am not a believer in other factions doing our work for us but I believe the L G and B factions accepted the 'T' because they saw that we were a persecuted minority as well!....... Why are we persecuted?... Well it's obvious that we are all different, but I also believe it's a perception of a hidden seedier side that perpetuates a feeling of indifference, dislike and contempt of us all by the public, which in turn is a of process of thoughts, feelings attitude, and then behaviour. Quite frankly the media don't help either and it's fair to say will only ever be "T friendly" when the story can be published as "Pure titliation" just to sell more newspapers or boost the rating figures.........

........ attitudes in the general public may be quicker to arrive if we continue to grouped together the LGB community, as those groups would otherwise probably be 20 years ahead of us in terms of acceptance by the public and the politicians........

I'm not so sure!..... I believe the best way we can gain acceptance is by getting out into the 'real' world, living an ordinary life, and interacting with the public!.....the more we raise our profile and become a common sight in the public domain the more people will realise we are just ordinary people doing ordinary things.

On a personal note, I don't seek acceptance. Tolerance will suffice and if people are courteous to me in my interactions with them, then that's fine by me, as some of you have heard me spout on, you can never truly know what somebody is really thinking!

[Haylee]

Excellent comments Linzi.

[rachelb]

I reckon that the majority of the 'Real World' believe that 'T' people are gay, that seems to be the first question they ask (including my wife) when they find out you like to wear a dress. It is going to take a lot of campaigning to change that attitude

[Kaity]

Linzi took the words right out of my mouth. Nice post :D

I consider myself to be a straight female, so why on earth should I be lumped in with the L,G & B's?

Lynda told me on Tues that it was good for the 'CD/TV's (not the term she used) as it gives them a bit of protection. Therefore as a TS it seems I have to make do for the masses so they can go get drunk in safety :confused:. What about my safety walking around town during the daytime, that doesn't seem to matter? I don't want people to class me as being 'gay' or leading L,G or B 'lifestyle' I want them to class me as leading a 'hetero female' lifestyle.

[reggie]

All comments aside it looks as if we have opened another can of worms here.
No matter what is said I reckon most of us might still stick to our original ideas.

[debs_n_soots]

Cans of worms sometimes need to be opened - and it's no problem in my book as long as it doesn't get nasty and/or personal. Isn't that what a forum is about - an exchange of ideas? :)

Kaity - as you'll see from my previous post(s) I agree with you in principal, but when it comes to being part of an alliance that is mutually beneficial in gaining/protecting rights then I don't see it as a bad thing. Socially I guess, at one time or another, most of us have used gay venues because they were safe and we were unsure of ourselves in the big bad world - so I can see Lynda's point as well.

Rachel's point is interesting - and I had similar experiences when I told some (though not all) people. Might take a long time to change that one Rachel - and certainly not helped by being 'lumped together' but then there are worse things for people to think I'd say.

Debbie x

[reggie]

I didnt mean anything nasty or sarcastic when I said a can of worms. I merely meant that there would be a lot of differences of opinion, and I can see it going a long way.

:confused: As I said in my first post on this subject my brother thought it was because I was gay, I think that is how a lot of people do see Transgendered people

[debs_n_soots]

didn't think you meant anything nasty or sarcastic Regine - just thought you were worried about things getting heated - and was saying that even with contentious subjects it needn't get like that :)

Debbie x

[reggie]

Thanks Debs you are a Sweetie

[Nicola D]

No matter what is said I reckon most of us might still stick to our original ideas.

Good point ...... except you didn't, Lynda convinced you to change your opinion.

I was discussing this with Lynda on tuesday, my point being that LGB was a sexuality issue not gender, until Lynda pointed out as she has done here that it is a lifestyle as well as sexuality.

Yes there is a difference here, but I now see the point that they are all Lifestyle matters not just sexuality, so we should stay together for the benefit of all concerned

So if you changed your opinion, then it's possible for any of us to change our opinions too. That's what this thread (and this forum too) is here for. (Well I think so anyway !)

[Ina Serene Cowan]

Nicola, I couldnt agree more and I dont even know how you think about us crazy ones in USA.

The debating point is simple, "Why should anyone or any group be left behind"? In not so distant times ago, you couldnt sit on a whites bus if you were black, if you were born female you couldnt vote, and even if you loved someone of a different color you couldnt marry, it was just so against the 'law'. If you were gay, lesbian or questioning you were persecuted (even now). Thank GAWD, over past 40 years the the GLB community has become a political force to be reckoned with in USA. However the ENDA bill in USA-2007 ditched the 'T' as a politicall expedient 'sacrifice' to the political and religous gay right. What crap!!

So remember, we are all human beings with the same rights, freedom and responsibilities......"Why should anyone or any group be left behind"?
Hugzz
Ina

[Nicola D]

I dont even know how you think about us crazy ones in USA.

On this forum, I (and others too i'm sure) treat everyone as a person in their own right and attach no personal judgements based on the general opinion of whichever country they are in.

However the ENDA bill in USA-2007 ditched the 'T' as a politicall expedient 'sacrifice' to the political and religous gay right. What crap!!

That is very interesting. I would like to know (if you are willing and/or able to tell us) why the T was ditched from GLB. Was there a good case to do so or was it pressure from any group in particular ?
(your telling us doesn't have to represent your own personal opinions)

[Kaity]

Kaity - as you'll see from my previous post(s) I agree with you in principal, but when it comes to being part of an alliance that is mutually beneficial in gaining/protecting rights then I don't see it as a bad thing. Socially I guess, at one time or another, most of us have used gay venues because they were safe and we were unsure of ourselves in the big bad world - so I can see Lynda's point as well.



But is it really beneficial to us? How? I reckon if you were to ask many Lesbians (specially butch ones, who in my experience have a real problem with 'us') and Gays why the T is in LGBT they wouldn't know and maybe even give you a mouthful.

They don't know why we are there, we don't know why we are there.

It's like Golfers being looked after by the Football Association!



However the ENDA bill in USA-2007 ditched the 'T' as a politicall expedient 'sacrifice' to the political and religous gay right. What crap!!

but this proves my point, they didn't want 'us' there and it's likely the a large part of the LGB scene in the UK feels the same way.


PC Lindsey Nottingham (one of our local LGBT coppers) told me last year that in Lancashire Constabularies new equality guidelines they were going to split us off, and refer to it all as 'LGB & T,' she even showed me a poster or pamphlet with this on it. However I now cant find any reference to this on their web site, so maybe they backtracked on this going live? However if even the Police can see that the T doesn't belong there, and why, why cant we?

[Lynsey]

I didn,t forget hetero, my point was nowadays that lots of institutions such as trade unions etc. have now set up LGBT assistance, LGBT officers designed to focus on issues related to these categories of people hetero isnt in it because lgbth would just mean everyone, or just about.

My point is LGB people have now been recognised as an identifiable group of disadvantaged minorities the fact that T is included I believe helps represent the T group of people with beneficial effects.

[Lynda Collins]

Linzi took the words right out of my mouth. Nice post :D

I consider myself to be a straight female, so why on earth should I be lumped in with the L,G & B's?

Lynda told me on Tues that it was good for 'CD/TV's (not the term she used) as it gives them a bit of protection. Therefore as a TS it seems I have to make do for the masses so they can go get drunk in safety :confused:. What about my safety walking around town during the daytime, that doesn't seem to matter? I don't want people to class me as being 'gay' or leading L,G or B 'lifestyle' I want them to class me as leading a 'hetero female' lifestyle.

Kaity, Can I raise a couple of points... "I consider myself a straight female" okay then why are you bothered about the LBGT... you are a female, all your documentation says you are. Who are these people that are going to class you as "gay" or leading a LGB lifestyle...
And who are these people that get drunk in safety and what has that got to do with you walking round in the daytime? I would have thought you were as safe as any other female in this town?.....

p.s. and yes I said the other girls not "the 'CD/TV's " as everyone to me is a person!!

[rachelb]

SOME of the GL or B's could well wonder why the 'T's are connected with 'their' groups, the same as there would be GL or B's who could see reasons for having the 'T's along with them, it is the spice of life. But I don't think that any Transperson, whatever position on the Gender spectrum could be as free in living their lifestyle today if the 'T's had insisted on going it alone at the time. If they had then the whole thing could well have been scuppered because the transexuals wouldn't want to be connected with 'Those TV's/CD's', so thier campaigne would have stuggled on for years and years. Maybe now MIGHT be the time that TRANSSEXUAL people to start to get themselves recognised in thier own right, I don't know.

Also, if an individual transexual is having difficulties in being able to live her life as female, a lot of it could be on how femine she looks, i.e the dreaded 'will I pass when in town shopping?' must surely apply to her as well as to the standard TV and i don't mean the 6 foot tall girls wearing short skirts, i mean those that walk about dressed sensibly for their age. Just incase some of you might wonder where on earth are, maybe you just haven't been looking hard enough!

[gillian pinktop]

Hi all

It seems to be a trait of human kind to want to lable others perhaps to ensure that we know where the 'they' are and what threat 'they' pose to 'us'. I feel as if I have spent 45 years looking for an 'us' to join and having found it I feel sad that the process is at work within the group again.

In general terms it seems self evident that in a hostile, uncomprehending and downright ignorant world we should be looking for more letters to add to the 'us' lable not looking to downgrade some as being second rate members. We are all on the same hard road, at differnent places perhaps but we share far more in common than we have differences. Weigh the similarities against the differences and we will find so much more to share than to dispute.

Gill

[Kaity]

Kaity, Can I raise a couple of points... "I consider myself a straight female" okay then why are you bothered about the LBGT... you are a female, all your documentation says you are. Who are these people that are going to class you as "gay" or leading a LGB lifestyle...
And who are these people that get drunk in safety and what has that got to do with you walking round in the daytime? I would have thought you were as safe as any other female in this town?.....

p.s. and yes I said the other girls not "the 'CD/TV's " as everyone to me is a person!!

Because Lynda lets not kids ourselves, my surgery did wonders for me, but I will still get read regardless, in fact I was read today while out walking on the prom.

As I have said elsewhere and vocally to many peoples, I am a woman first and foremost and a trans-sexual second, but I will not kid myself into thinking I can ever escape being labelled as a trans-sexual... so therefore I don't want the T in with LGBT because I always will be T and I am not gay.

I want the public to see T as something else and for them not to connect it with being 'gay', and to do that we ourselves need to stop allying with the GLB in the first place.

I agree you can be T AND L,G or B, but its a generalisation to automatically lump all T people with being L, G or B.

[rachelb]

but I will still get read regardless, in fact I was read today while out walking on the prom.

Kaity, I am surprised you feel that you get problems by being 'read, when I first saw you at the recent 'Ren' meeting I thought you looked very attractively 'femme'. How were you 'read', did somone make a verbal comment to the effect that they thought you were a 'bloke', either out loud to you or to a person they were with? Or did they just look at you? If they looked at you without saying anything they MIGHT have been thinking that you looked nice, or that you were wearing something that caught their eye. Even I get the 'look' at times and I could hardly be regarded as a very 'femme' looking 'T' person, but it isn't always obvious that I have been read as a bloke in a dress, or that they are looking at what I am wearing. I have been fortunate that i have not had to face any verbal abuse yet, otherwise I might go and hide away somewhere.

[reggie]

I would just like to say that I find Gillians post a very mature view on this topic, and everybody should take note that she has made it without commenting on any personnal situations, or picking holes in what others have posted

[Sally Ann Smith]

I agree with reggie and Gillian

To me the letters LBGT are just that "letters" somone else's lable

They do not have an efect on how I chose to live

As I tend to avoid this lable by avoiding the gay bars ect

I just want to go where all other ladies go. They dont hide away, so why should I

Yes I do get read and have had a few comments passed. But it is rere
99% of people don't care

Since I acsepted I am Sally I have become a more conferdent person and intend to enjoy my female life to the full

Other peoples lables mean mothing


Sally

[Melissa Johnson]

The problem is that by being the T in LGBT we have powerful friends who are bringing public acceptance and tolerance not only to them but to us as well.

If we go it alone ,WE will have to be prepared to start out where the Gay/Lesbian activists were 20 odd years ago and try to educate a very apathetic public that really we are special , not like those weird people over there.

Girls ,please get real to the vast majority of the public we are all a bit suspect whether we are LGB orT.

If you can crossover well enough to pass unnoticed that's great, YOU no longer have a problem and I will still be happy to talk to you.

If however , we want not to get picked on when read , we NEED to be seen as part of a vocal well structured 'community' that the general public KNOWS has rights and consequences if you attack them.
The alternative is to be part of a minority with no champions right for a good kicking from anybody who wants to have a go.

Plus can you really imagine the new T committee trying to define what is a T in isolation and the varying kinds of T.

Don't do it , splitting away would be folly and set everybody back into the dark ages.

[gillian pinktop]

Amen to that sister.
Gill X

[gillian pinktop]

It is not often that this girl gets to have the last word in anything. Have you all run out of thigs to say?
Gill ;)

[Kaity]

I came to the conclusion that there's no point trying to point out the obvious to those who don't want to see it, because it's too inconvenient for them and their life style.

[Lynda Collins]

I think more that everyone has there own perspective on this issue.

What about attending the next Transinclustion meeting on the 17th then Kaity... if we don't attend then we can't imfluence what happens?.

[Kaity]

I thought the next Ren was tonight?

[Lynda Collins]

Have edited post .... I meant the TransInclusion (http://transinclusion.org/)Meeting

[Kaity]

OK, I can see the connection, but don't understand how going to a TI meeting ties in with the discussion here and the people here discussing it, as only about two of them go to TI meetings.

I don't see how 'I' as one person can have any effect on a organisation like TI whose motto and main goal is 'Putting the T into LGBT!'. This is the whole reason why I don't attend their meetings as it is. I went to one meeting in February, but only because it was a special one with people there from some NHS department focusing only on gaining feedback on the NHS's handling of GID.

Honestly, I don't have any personal issues with any of the TI people or their attendees, I just don't agree with their orgs motto and it's direction. The 'support group' I tried to instigate the set up off, which became TI, had entirely different aims and direction.


BTW - Talking of the TI peeps... Charlotte and Sonya may be popping along to tonight's Ren, as Sonya is in town atmo, I saw her last night for a natter.

[Sarah Hughes]

Well I was keeping quiet, and out of it, but ok will throw in my lot then.
There is no problem with T in LBGT, Kaity, you may have met a few 'anti' lesbians but you know they were probably jealous of you!
Yes there are a few 'anti' gay men out there too, mostly in my experience because they are frustrated that you are not gay and up for it when they approach you!
As a Ts or whatever title you want, if you dont want to go to gay bars/clubs then dont. Most of us TVs or TG or whatever label fits that do use gay venues do so because they are friendly and safe.
And we are welcome at most venues i might add, we add a touch of colour and glamour...well i try.
I wish the world allowed us safety in other environments too, but until it does I will carry on gracing the gay venues with my presence. Actually, most of the people you meet in there are really nice, wish I could say the same about local pubs.
There are lots of different levels? is that the word? of Tvs, some are over the top drag queen style, others try their darned best to blend in and disappear into the background. Cant see how we can object to them expressing how they want to appear, not really.
So, sorry, I can see no reason as to why we would want to split and go on our own. I can see Ts groups doing so, but isnt that natural? if someone goes through the trouble to become 'a woman' then understandbly they dont want anything to do with us second rate people.....and yes I do get the impression that transitioners(some, not all)do feel superior to us, I dont have an issue with that either, entirely understanable in my book.
As has been said already, the majority of "normal" people consider us gay, we must be to wear a dress. All we can do is educate them as and when we meet.
I'll dig out my tin hat now and hide.
xxx

[Kaity]

...
As has been said already, the majority of "normal" people consider us gay, we must be to wear a dress....

And this is my obvious point that everyone refuses to see!

By allying ourselves with the gay community Joe Public thinks "oh they are part of the Gay thing, therefore they MUST be gay too!"

Think about it, it makes such bloody sense.

When you ally yourself with something you are announcing a similarity or a like minded outlook.

Imagine if golfers suddenly allied themselves to the football association, what would everyone think.... "oh they must be footballers too!", it's an obvious conclusion to draw.

Everyone keeps looking at this subject from inside the TG world, don't, look at it from Joe Public's point of view.

If you don't want to be seen as being gay cos you wear a dress, then don't hang around with gay people. Like DUH!


Joe Public see's TG's hanging around wth 'gays' and pushing ourselves as part of the LGBT community. Which means that straight TS's (especially those that don't pass) get abuse cos Joe Public is LED to believe by OUR OWN ACTIONS that WE ARE gay men in dresses.


We need to break away and learn to stand on our own two feet, only that way can we get true recognition for the people we are, whether we be straight, gay, lesbian or wotever.


EDIT - Got upset tummy atmo, hence why I am not at ren tonight and have had to edit this post a few times :p

[Sarah Hughes]

And this is my obvious point that everyone refuses to see!

By allying ourselves with the gay community Joe Public thinks "oh they are part of the Gay thing, therefore they MUST be gay too!"

Think about it, it makes such bloody sense.

When you ally yourself with something you are announcing a similarity or a like minded outlook.

Imagine if golfers suddenly allied themselves to the football association, what would everyone think.... "oh they must be footballers too!", it's an obvious conclusion to draw.

Everyone keeps looking at this subject from inside the TG world, don't, look at it from Joe Public's point of view.

If you don't want to be seen as being gay cos you wear a dress, then don't hang around with gay people. Like DUH!


Joe Public see's TG's hanging around wth 'gays' and pushing ourselves as part of the LGBT community. Which means that straight TS's that dont pass get abuse cos Joe Public is LED to believe by OUR OWN ACTIONS that WE ARE gay men in dresses.

So in effect many TS's get abuse in their day to day lives just so that CD/TV's can selfishly go get drunk.

No Kaity, Joe public will think we are gay anyway, they will and do even if they themselves have never been to a gay venue.
What about teenagers? they have never attended a gay venue or a straight pub, but if you are out on your own and a group spy you, what do you think they will shout? "oh theres a straight man in a dress"?.....dont think so.
We attend gay venues cos mostly its unsafe to go anywhere else, not for all but certainly for a lot of us.
And for the record, I dont mind people people mistaking me for gay...DUH! I can always correct that impression.

[Kaity]

No Kaity, Joe public will think we are gay anyway, they will and do even if they themselves have never been to a gay venue.
What about teenagers? they have never attended a gay venue or a straight pub, but if you are out on your own and a group spy you, what do you think they will shout? "oh theres a straight man in a dress"?.....dont think so.
We attend gay venues cos mostly its unsafe to go anywhere else, not for all but certainly for a lot of us.
And for the record, I dont mind people people mistaking me for gay...DUH! I can always correct that impression.

No you're wrong! They only think that cos we show society that, and society permatates (gah cant find the correct spelling for this word) within itself the image and feelings from all around it.

For example, look at Skoda cars, 10, 15, 20 years ago everyone thought they were crap, yet most people had never actually been in one let alone drive one, it became part of our society that Skodas were a joke... even teens, who couldn't drive, said it, cos they echoed what their parents and society told them.

Now Skodas are getting pretty hip and cool and I bet if you asked a teen today about Skodas they would give you a different opinion, because Skoda has worked hard to redefine its image, moving away from the idea of them being made of crap materials and coming from a country that was seen as being backward.

We too can redefine in the society's minds our image too, but like Skoda we need to do the work to make it happen... not just turn around and say 'it is, so therefore it shall be', that is just defeatist!

Any change requires work!

[Sarah Hughes]

Wrong again, but its only my opinion so thats ok.
Skodas were crap, everyone knew this as there were enough stories about, and they were!
After a well respected motor manufacture got involved they have turned things around, took some doing though.
Us stopping going to gay venues would not change Joe publics opinions in the slightest, all it would do is stop us going out and having a good time.
As i have said before, there are Tv(and Ts or whatever)who dress in a manner which I wouldnt....and maybe you could say it discredits us all, but who the heck am I to criticise? its freedom of expression that allows me to dress as i want and go out.

[Kaity]

...odd, cos you proved my analogy.

Anyway, I should have stuck with what I said a few posts back...

I've come to the conclusion that there's no point trying to point out the obvious to those who don't want to see it, because it's too inconvenient for them and their life style.

I withdraw from the discussion because it's never going to get anywhere constructive. The TG Community is a dead loss, cos it suits too many peoples purposes for it not to learn and grow.

[Sarah Hughes]

...odd, cos you proved my analogy.

Anyway, I should have stuck with what I said a few posts back...

I've come to the conclusion that there's no point trying to point out the obvious to those who don't want to see it, because it's too inconvenient for them and their life style.

I withdraw from the discussion because it's never going to get anywhere constructive. The TG Community is a dead loss, cos it suits too many peoples purposes for it not to learn and grow.

Ok Kaity, last go.
Your analogy was not a good one from your discussion point, as the skodas were crap, you would have difficulty finding someone to dispute this, and not because of bad press.
You have to be realistic, which is why many of us use gay venues, its safe!
Wish it was different, but it aint, and nowt will change soon.
I disagree that the community is a dead loss.
But lets just agree to disagree, its only discussion, not life and death.

[rachelb]

...odd, cos you proved my analogy.

Anyway, I should have stuck with what I said a few posts back...

I've come to the conclusion that there's no point trying to point out the obvious to those who don't want to see it, because it's too inconvenient for them and their life style.

I withdraw from the discussion because it's never going to get anywhere constructive. The TG Community is a dead loss, cos it suits too many peoples purposes for it not to learn and grow.

What do you mean by 'constructive', if the discussion is going round in circles then maybe it has run its course and we also all know what it was all about, after all the title of this thread was 'Should The T Be In LGBT?' and it looks as if most people think that rightly or wrongly, maybe it should. As you say - 'end of discussion'

[Melissa Johnson]

Well said sister,
Lol,
Melissa xx

[Linzi]

I think Kaity's Skoda analogy is spot on!.......I once drove a Skoda 110r coupe and I can say it is one of the best and fun cars I have ever driven.
First of all! Skoda's (pronounced "Shhkoda") were never crap!... ...Skoda's also proved to be very capable rally cars with the Estelle and Rapid winning their class in the RAC Rally for 17 years! Yes!… I would concede they were the butt of numerous Jokes in the 1980's however this was fuelled by the media and don’t forget the cold war was at its height so there was a perception that anything from Eastern Europe was inferior, naff or downright dangerous. I would also add that the Skoda Favorit was designed Italian Design house Bertone who have designed some of the most beautiful and reliable cars in the world. However, it's true that Skoda's association with VW and the perception that VW build good reliable cars has improved Skoda's Image in the UK Today.........

Ooops!.................I digress!..........I but think Kaity's point about having to redefine our image in "Joe public's mind" is a valid one too and best way to do this to actually interact with them and live our life on our own terms and not expect other groups, who have been labelled primarily by sexual orientation by society, in doing all the spade work for us. I also refuse to believe that If 'T' people stopped going to Gay venues they would not be able to go out and have a good time. Why is it that 'T' people are obsessed with the word “Safe”?:rolleyes:…… So in the context of a “Safe Venue” logic tells me that there is no such place and whilst bearing that in mind I suppose it's all down to your own definition of fun, self confidence level and your own understanding of what being 'T' actually means to you.

So when I reflect on this thread and the debate, I really still believe it's up to us all as individuals to make our own way, but at times it is reassuring to know that there is a 'T' but independant collective.
.

[Lynda Collins]

There does seems to be an obsession with the words GAY, LESBIAN and BI-SEXUAL..... Lets look at it from Joe Public's view.... most haven't even heard of LBGT..... to them it is simple, a gay man leads a gay lifestyle and is attracted to other men..... a lesbian leads a lesbian lifestyle and is attracted to other females..... a bisexual normally leads an average life but is attracted to both male and female....

Joe Public can actually understand these.......

Now we have the Tgirl...... to Joe Public this is a conumdrum, a person that wants to wear the attire of the opposite sex .. this is where logic goes wrong.... To Joe Public's hetro brain it say's dresses as a female therefore is looking to attract a male partner....

Most of the girls cannot even tell you why they need to let out there femiine side so, how can we expect Joe Public to comprehend what the drive is

With regards to using gay venues What is so wrong with this.... as we know a lot of hetro couples use these venue's as well due to there strict
conduct policies and these couples feel "SAFE" from the drunks and d**kheads found in some bars. Also some of the girls are not ready to embrace society, as for example Linzi is.

It is going to take an awful lot of time to change the views of the so called general public [including the so called macho man that likes to wear his partners nickers whilst having sex] It is not going to happen tommorow!.

I also know that you girls are not going to be able to agree about the LGB "T" so, I will close this thread on the 18th of June

[debs_n_soots]

Actually Lynda you took the words out of my mouth - I too doubt if most people have even heard the acronym 'LGBT' - it's an association used by the police, trade unions and some 'umbrella' organisations. To me it's simply about joint action on a joint problem - discrimination. It doesn't say anything about individual sexual or gender preferences in that sense.

As I've posted earlier, literally, there is a distinction between LGB and T - but does it matter in this context?

I can see your point Kaity - but I think (and this is only my opinion) you worry to much about the implications of the association. I honestly think the word 'sex' in transsexual is more likely to confuse Joe Public, than LGBT, into thinking that being ts (or tv for that matter) is about sexuality. Of course it doesn't mean that at all, as we all know, its a medical term to describe the physical aspects of gender - and thus valid - but its easily misconstrued.

The attitudes of the general public will change with increased openess and exposure to 'T' people - I don't see that LGBT has to be a handicap to that.

Debbie x

[Sarah Hughes]

Well, Skodas were crap, in my opinion! Dont know if your (Linzi) was after the big shake up with the company, you know the one where VW were brought in to turn things around. Not just design but build quality, which was seriously lacking before.
But anyway, all this is by the by.
The reason "Safe" is brought up such a lot is because its not safe out there! If you are able to pass well and fit in normally then ok, you can go out without fear of being targetted, but if you dont......what do you do? stay in? well nothing will improve if you do that.
As has been said, many straight couples frequent gay venues because of the friendly non-threatening atmosphere, they are genuinly nice people and places to be, so little wonder many of us use them.
Some transitioners, when further down the path they are taking seem to want to move away from Tvs, distancing themselves from these "men in dresses", thats ok, I can understand that too. I dont have a problem with that, but why do the rest of us have to?
So maybe the topic should be ' lets have a group for Ts only' ?

But lets love one another anyway, shame to fall out.

[rachelb]

Getting the 'T' into the public eye is one of the reasons for the 'Sparkle' event taking place.

[noeleena]

hi..... this can be a hard one for us in n z its not working very well . the groups are not the same ... for me i am a women so i see things in a way a women would see things. i work with in the trans community as a women i do have friends who are gay & spend time with them & there kids as well so i have no problems there. there are some concerns that are the same yet in others ways most are not . so where do i fit in . just a women then . oh well for me its not a problem now ...noeleena...